Interview with Hillary Kirtland

Behavioural Science is a rapidly expanding field and everyday new research is being developed in academia, tested and implemented by practitioners in financial organisations, development agencies, government ‘nudge’ units and more. This interview is part of a series interviewing prominent people in the field. And in today's interview the answers are provided by Hillary Kirtland.

Hillary works in Global Career Strategy & Design at IBM, helping 160k+ consultants build exciting career pathways. Hillary is a leader in change, powered by an enthusiasm for behavioral sciences, efficient processes and asking tough questions. She has been recognized with awards for her leadership and advocacy at IBM and has published several articles with Each is Every, an online career development platform. Hillary is also a frequent volunteer with GW, having served a 3-year tenure on the Board of Advisors for the GW School of Business and continues to donate her time as an alumni mentor, guiding and coaching students who aspire to pivot to the consulting industry.

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How did you get into behavioural science?

If I’m honest, I was almost shocked to get your interview request. I don’t really consider myself a behavioural scientist – mostly because I don’t have any formal education in the field. I am just really fascinated by it, and I love using its principles in my work when I can – first as a Change Strategist and now as a Talent/Careers Strategist. It really all started in undergrad, when I was taking my required macro- and microeconomics classes, in which, I learned the very basics of human decision making. I had a truly amazing professor, Lora Holcombe, who also encouraged us to do reading outside the classroom on the topic of behavioural economics. I took her advice and was hooked. I picked up all the popular books at the time (i.e., Freakonomics, Freedomnomics, Nudge, Predictably Irrational, and others). From there, I just let myself get curious.

Right out of college, I spent just under 2 years with the Walt Disney Company and about 1.5 years doing yacht insurance. When I left to pursue my MBA fulltime, I discovered a way focus on human behaviour with my career via organizational change, organizational behaviour, and change management. That's when I entered the world of consulting. I worked as a Change Strategist for 6 years (with both Government and Commercial clients), before transferring into the Talent/Careers space that I’m in now. I’ve since read other authors, and I follow experts such as Brene Brown, Adam Grant, Simon Sinek, Malcolm Gladwell, and Daniel Pink; as well as people on LinkedIn who are doing work in the space that I find interesting, like Annie Dean at Atlassian or anyone in Darcie Piechowski’s Women in Behavioural Science group!  

What has been your greatest achievement so far? What are you most proud of? 

My greatest achievement? I feel like that is truly yet to come. But so far, I’m most proud of the things that people have told me made their working lives easier or more fulfilled. One day I hope to improve more than just working lives, but that still feels incredibly impactful, for now. For example, I am currently working on a chatbot automation to simplify how IBMers get personalized answers to “What do I need to do to get promoted?” - that feels huge!

I find great purpose in developing simple methods that help others connect the dots they previously didn’t know how to connect. In my previous consulting role, I helped blue collar leaders shift their mindset on their dispersed and distributed, heavily industrial operation. Alongside a dear friend and colleague, Katie Veneziano, I led workshops to connect the dots on how organizational structure, policies, and procedures can drive or deter desired employee behaviours.

I’ve seen first-hand, how important the human side of business truly is and impacting that in a positive way always feels like a great achievement. The passion for this work all started when I created an operating procedures manual for an organization that never had one before (something else that I’m particularly proud of). It’s the little things, where I followed my curiosity and interests, that is leading to the big things yet to come.

What is it that you would still like to achieve?

I’d like to connect the dots for more people and organizations on how important organizational structure, policies, and procedures are to culture and behaviour. I don’t think the majority of leaders understand how much power they have to be intentional in this space – whether it be careers, productivity, or growth. I can't name a single client where we didn't come in and find some sort of silo or ‘frozen middle.’ I’d love to help more leaders answer the question of ‘How do we build better internal connections in the places that matter?’ Whether it’s for data privacy, autonomy of work, or just bandwidth, some silos exist for a good reason. However, some silos exist just because that's the way things ended up (or have always been), and that's what you want to avoid.

The idea that new technology will inherently create new employee experience is somewhat flawed. Of course, a faster experience is a new experience, but if you add technology to processes that currently drive siloed behaviour, you're just going to have tech-enabled, siloed behaviour. Technology won’t change any of the foundational challenges an organization faces, unless that organization also changes their foundation.

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How do you see behavioural science change throughout the next decade? And is that something positive? 

I've seen some companies that are using it to figure out what distributed, remote, hybrid work means, especially as we head into the AI-era. As we come to another inflection point of what ‘work’ looks like, there is such a fascinating application of behavioural science in this space. When you think about it, we've been doing distributed work (e.g., online work or remote work) for decades. Even if you were sitting in the same office, half the time you either remain in your cubicle or in a conference room to take the calls with distributed teams. The pandemic accelerated the structural changes required to work in this way, however, we have yet to see what this means in the long-term for the same things I mention above – careers, productivity, and growth.

We're struggling now because we're trying to force fit cultures that were built around shared locations rather than shared objectives. The shared objectives piece is what's really, really hard. It requires that we take a step back from what's urgent and focus on what's important (ruthless prioritization if you will). To manage distributed work – whether it’s co-located or not – and really get it right, organizations will need applied behavioural sciences, alongside new technology (e.g., AI), to develop the future of how, where, and when work gets done.

Do you foresee any challenges coming up for this development? Getting representation right – that will be a big one. The impact of how, where, and when work gets done will look and feel different to every individual. The success of the research and applications of behavioural sciences in distributed work will depend on how well we can understand – and solution for – as many lived experiences as possible.

You interviewed a colleague of mine, Darcie, who started a LinkedIn group, Women in Behavioural Science, and I thought that was fantastic! Before that, there weren’t many visible women, or other under-represented groups, that I saw in the space. As a neurodivergent woman, I’d love to see more neurodiversities accounted for, as well. It may already be out there, but I’d love to have it be more visible. The more inclusive the field (which is a challenge in and of itself), the fewer challenges we will see with the decisions that are derived from the work. Do you have a personal frustration with applied behavioural science? Not with the field itself, but with the perceptions of it. Even with the work I did as a Change Strategist, many believe that there is not much substance behind it – that it’s all fluffy and ‘feel good,’ or that anyone can do it. What I try to explain to clients and colleagues is that if a change person does their job perfectly, they should feel unnecessary – everything should feel seamless and intuitive (spoiler alert – a change person made it that way). However, too often change strategy and support is only desired when it’s lacking. It’s been a really helpful skillset to have, as I move into more program management and leadership roles.

On the flipside, many self-identified Change Strategists don’t do a good enough job building a true business case for their work, which amplifies this miss-perception. I’d love to see more data, financials, and strategy connected to change work. I’d love to see business leaders understand the benefits of connecting behaviour change to business structure and outcomes, and staff those teams appropriately for success. Until behaviour (and behaviour change) is appreciated as something that someone can have expertise in, and that expertise becomes a more broadly trusted source of truth, it will continue to be treated as a commodity skillset.

So what skill set do you need to actually be able to have this be seamless?

Seamless is a bit of a pipedream. The good news is that you can recover from just about anything, and building confidence in that is what will make your work feel seamless. I've done enough transformations to know that something will inevitably ‘go wrong.’ Just like the weather, you can't predict when it's going to rain, but you know it eventually will. Make sure that you have the right team, infrastructure, and mitigation plans in place to respond to whatever happens. That way, no matter what pops-up, you can get back to ‘seamless’ as quickly as possible.

The best work comes from combining the hard skills (agile program management) with the soft skills (stakeholder engagement). They need to balance each other out. The ability to identify risks, uncover dependencies, plan mitigation strategies, and pivot plans in an ever-changing environment is not something that everyone can do. However, no matter how well you lead in this way, or ‘right’ you believe your recommendations are, decision-makers can simply want to follow their gut (usually based in their singular lived experience). You must know how to connect with them, especially if your recommendations require a leap of faith on their part.

In short, agile program management helps make sure you deliver something, while stakeholder engagement makes sure you deliver the right things. The combination is a difference-maker for successful outcomes of any transformation.

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For getting into behavioural science, do you think it makes sense to replicate your journey? Or would you recommend something very different for people interested in behavioural science?

Whenever asked for my recommendation for just about anything, I respond in a very stereotypical consulting way – it depends. This is true for just about everything. What is ‘good’ for you will be heavily dependent on how you define ‘good’ or what you want to see as the result. If you want to research and teach, I’d suggest exploring continued higher education in the space. If you want to have direct impact on outcomes in the near-term, I’d suggest looking into jobs that will help you build this kind of expertise (e.g., Change Management). There's going to be trade-offs and hurdles, no matter what route you take. And these are only 2 of umpteen ways to get deeper involved in any domain of expertise. 

Now, I didn’t go the academic route. I intentionally followed my curiosity and unintentionally stumbled into a behavioural science adjacent field. I’ve been in the workforce for over 10 years now and things have changed since I was an entry-level job seeker. What was good for me will very likely be different than what’s good for others. Something I would recommend for everyone though, is to follow your curiosity and find out which part feels the most authentic to you. At the end of the day, that's really where you're going to find fulfilment. Start asking more questions, read books, talk to experts, try things out, and you’ll likely forge an even better path than I could recommend.

Do you apply behavioural science to your personal life?

I try to apply what I can to set myself up for success. A few examples include:

• I make the things I want to achieve as frictionless as possible, like an automatic paycheck contribution to my 401K.

• I reflect on my own bias, fear, threat aversion, and unconscious expectations when making big decisions (especially with my partner).

• I try to hack my dopamine at the gym, by constantly tracking progress and celebrating personal records (aka PRs) – no matter how big or small.

• I habit stack where I can, like putting my nutritional supplements in my daily cup of coffee or hitting a monthly reading goal by picking a book where I learn something that helps me achieve another goal.

I am far from perfect at any of these, but I find that it’s the small habits that really drive big change over time. That’s really what I try to do, make small, consistent change that leads to intentional and sustainable outcomes for me and my loved ones.

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If not an applied behavioural scientist, could you have seen yourself become anything else?

I’ve toyed around with the idea of one day finding a path to teaching. I really enjoy helping others find their own ‘aha!’ moments and supporting them as they achieve their own goals. I truly enjoy people leadership – career conversations, performance feedback, mentorship, and sponsorship. I feel a great sense of value in growing with others. I could see myself becoming a professor later on in my career. Especially if I could combine my love of travel with teaching, maybe as a study abroad professor – I think that would be really fulfilling.

With my love of travel, something else I thought about a lot, and almost studied in school, was anthropology. This is also a field where I found my curiosity tugging at me over the years. It kind of feels like the other side of behavioural science in a way – just on a global scale. Who knows, maybe I’ll find a way to combine them all – teaching, traveling, anthropology, and behaviour.

Which other behavioural scientists would you like to see an interview by?

Oh gosh! I feel like my understanding of who is out there is still so limited and my curiosity is still so open. I’d love to hear from the behavioural scientists working at companies like Atlassian, who are at the forefront of distributed work.

Additionally, without knowing who these people might be, there are plenty of ideas that I have around the types of behavioural scientists whose interviews I’d very much value reading:

• I’ve learned that language (and interpretation of language) is so important to behaviour, so I’d love to see interviews of behavioural scientists whose native language is not English.

• There is also a very interesting role that society and culture play into behaviour, so I’d love to see interviews with behavioural scientists with lived experiences that are outside of western cultures.

• Because there is so much space left to explore with neurodiversity, it would be cool to see interviews of behavioural scientists who are leading the way here (especially if they are neurodiverse, themselves).

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Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions Hillary!

As I said before, this interview is part of a larger series which can also be found here on the blog. Make sure you don't miss any of those, nor any of the upcoming interviews!

Keep your eye on Money on the Mind!