Interview with Lindsey Horne

Behavioural Science is a rapidly expanding field and everyday new research is being developed in academia, tested and implemented by practitioners in financial organisations, development agencies, government ‘nudge’ units and more. This interview is part of a series interviewing prominent people in the field. And in today's interview the answers are provided by Lindsey Horne.

With a background in neuroscience and applied behavioural science, Lindsey works across behaviour change projects. She has worked across cyber security, tax systems, injury prevention and has a particular focus on transport, energy and climate change. Her approach to behaviour change is holistic, from broader cultural and social change through to behavioural economics and nudges.

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How did you get into behavioral science?

I was always interested in humans and human behavior. So I studied neuroscience at university which gave me a really deep understanding of individual behavior. At the same time, I was getting involved in environmental groups and really looking at like campaigning around climate change. And was really looking at how you create change on a larger scale. So for me it was that pairing of understanding individuals but also understanding social change. And so that's what got me really interested in this space; I'm really passionate about climate action. I thought understanding human behavior could really be my contribution to that movement as well.

I then started working at TRA, which stands for The Research Agency in both New Zealand and Australia. That's where I get to combine that passion of individual and social action across public and private sector. I feel very lucky that I get to work on this stuff and nerd out on behavioral science every day. And the cool thing is that my team has so many skill sets that they bring to it as well. They're not just trained in behavioral science; we have a full data team, we've got qualitative experts, quantitative experts, but also work really closely with brand and communication strategists and cultural trend researchers as well.

What is your biggest achievement so far? What are you the most proud of in terms of behavioral science? 

I'm always really proud of the work that we do in the climate space and particularly around transport emissions. But when it comes to behavioral science in particular, I personally get really excited when we use interesting and innovative methodologies. Especially when we're capturing actual human behaviour, not just self-reported behaviour. And also when we're using cross disciplinary methods, so if we're combining behavioural science with another discipline. One of the examples that I'm really proud of was actually featured last year in the behavioral economics 2023 guide. And we also created a whole guide around this that got sent around the Asia Pacific area, which was behavioral insights for cyber security that we did. We started with a cultural audit, which is when you use cultural trend research around semiotics and discourse analysis. So essentially you look at what all the imagery and language that is being used around a topic is For cyber security, it was all of these hooded hackers and circuit boards and kind of sci fi images. And the language was really militant. So it was talking about like cyber threats and cyber-attacks. That really provided the backdrop for our behavioral insights work to flourish in. And get our insights around getting the framing right; making it far more human and making the language far more accessible, and less scary and daunting for people.

And what do you still want to achieve? What's next? What are we working towards? We're doing a lot of trials in the AI space. So really looking at how we can use AI to support our behavioral science work. And I guess alongside that we've recently got a couple of pairs of eye tracking glasses and where we're seeing the biggest  development is around an AI capability is its ability to process imagery and video content as well. And eye tracking glasses are really great, because you're always trying to capture actual human behavior, not just self-reported behavior. And so when you can capture eye tracking footage, whether it's during UX trials or shopper experiences, or navigation and wayfinding, you can use AI to help process a lot of that video footage and help us understand what are people looking at, but also what are they not looking at. I get really excited in terms of behavioral science methodologies and capturing that actual behavior, but also how AI and technology can help speed that up for us and add some different lenses for us.

In general, working with other disciplines is so exciting for us. Whether it's working with cultural trend researchers or systems thinkers or indigenous researchers. I always want to go broader with behavioral science and seeing what other lenses we can bring to it.

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How do you see behavioral science as a field develop? And what do you think the future holds for behavioral science? Or what do you hope the future holds for behavioral science?

I'm a bit biased because I'm hoping it will move in the directions that I want to move in as well. So I'm hoping that it embraces AI, with careful consideration and that it also continues to play nice with other disciplines. We've seen some really cool work come out, for example George Loewenstein’s moving away from the I-frame to the S-frame and bringing in systems thinking, which Ruth Schmidt is so good at that. So I get really excited and hopeful that behavioral science continues to zoom in and understand individual behavior; but also zooms out and puts it in that larger context as well.

The other thing I'm hoping for is that the field moves towards taking stakeholders on the journey with them. We're starting to hear more and more of our clients really wanting to use behavioral insights within their organization. Not just to achieve an end outcome for the end audience, but to take internal stakeholders on a journey with them as well. I think that could be an interesting space around how to use it within an organization.

Do you have a specific discipline that you like to work with the most?

I love working with data scientists, cultural trend researchers and indigenous researchers, especially if the behavior change challenge we're working on is specific or we're seeing differences between different ethnicities or cultural groups. And of course the AI specialists, as we've started working with them and it's just so cool to see what's possible.

Do you foresee any challenges getting to your ideal future? What should we be wary of specifically as behavioral scientists? 

It's not a super old field, but it's not super young either; it's been around for a long enough time and there's really amazing groups and centres of excellence. And I think it's about collaborating with other disciplines. If there's going to be NudgeStock or another behavioral science symposium, who else are we inviting? What other angles are we bringing to that? And does it just have to be a behavioral science or behavior change focused? Or can we bring in some other lenses to think about how we're bringing those challenges on board? Can some of our behavioral science interest groups, do a mashup or kind of work with some other interest groups as well. Just broadening out our networks would be one way I think of how we could start to do that.

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If we’re hoping to merge disciplines together, what then, realistically, makes for a good behavioral scientist? What makes a behavioural scientist a behavioural scientist? 

I think all of the standard answers for what makes a good behavioural scientist apply, right? You need to have an understanding of human behaviour; you probably need to be good at stats and data; you need to subscribe to the scientific method. But I think what's interesting is, is also thinking about when the behavioral scientist comes into the behavior change challenge. And where I've seen it work really well is when you've done a lot of broad thinking and worked with other disciplines to set up what is the specific behavior change challenge and not getting too specific too soon.

So working with systems thinking, looking at cultural trends, looking at infrastructure to understand that bigger picture. And almost like see the wood from the trees. And then once you've mapped that out, then you know where you can hone in and get specific with a behavioral scientist. So for me, to go back to your question of what makes a good behavioral scientist, it's knowing when to come in with your skill set and not jumping in too soon on something that could end up being really effective, but is missing the bigger picture.

So then the standardized skill set, except for timing, to you, is understanding human behavior, data and analytics. Anything else you'd like to add to the skill set?

Just that collaboration piece; wanting to work with those other disciplines as well and not just having your behavioral science blinkers up.

How do you recommend people go into the field of behavioral science? Is there a certain type of pathway given the massive changes that the field has undergone despite being so young, that you that you recommend one path over the other?

I think I only know what I know on this front. I only know my pathway and I think it's going to be different for different people. But I think if you're passionate, just keep chasing after your passions and look under all the rocks and try all that you can do. I think it's just going to be different for different people. That's a real cop out answer, but I just don't want to give wrong advice.

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So assuming that you never found behavioral science, what do you think you would have turned out as? 

Oh, interesting! Outside of work, I'm an artist and sculptor, so I'd probably be sculpting. Or I would probably be doing environmental campaigning, because I'm really interested in those environmental and social narratives and that societal level change as well.

Do you have a personal frustration with the field?

There's a lot of jargon, and I love that it comes out of an ever evidence-based and academia space as well. But sometimes that means there's a really high barrier to entry and not everyone feels initially welcome. So a lot of the work that I do is really simplifying it and making it feel accessible to people. So that's a little bit of a bugbear that I have with the field.

Do you find the inaccessibility of the field one of the most disappointing aspects of the field? 

Well, I guess because I want lots of people to be engaged in this because I think it is a pretty powerful discipline. I do find it disappointing because I want more people to take part in it.

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And do you apply behavioral science to yourself?

I think like everyone, I'm a social creature. And so I, if I have a deadline, I'll often book a meeting with someone else, to put a bit of social pressure on me following through with my actions, cause I know that I then have to share it with someone.

I definitely do temptation bundling for exercise. So I'm only allowed to listen to my favorite podcast if I'm going for a walk or a run or something. So I've definitely done a bit of temptation bundling on that one.

Who else has inspired you in behavioral science? Who would you recommend for me to interview next because they are just an amazing person and an amazing behavioral scientist? 

Oh, I love this question. In the theme of what I've been saying in terms of zooming in and out, I think Ruth Schmidt's been really great at riffing off the back of moving beyond just the I-frame to the S-frame and looking at behavioral science at that systems level, and I love when she talked about choice infrastructure, not just choice architecture and really thinking about behavior change in that bigger picture context.

Here in New Zealand, there's a researcher out of the University of Auckland called Jess Berenston Shaw, and she does a lot of work on public narratives. Really looking at the framing and discourse of how really big and complex topics are being talked about in the media and at a national level so that you can move the public sentiment and move social license, at the public narrative scale.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions Lindsey!

As I said before, this interview is part of a larger series which can also be found here on the blog. Make sure you don't miss any of those, nor any of the upcoming interviews!

Keep your eye on Money on the Mind!